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Richard454 |
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Post subject: BMW V12 Swap Corvette
 Posted: May 03, 2010 - 05:16 AM
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Junior Member
Joined: Mar 06, 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
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I've been looking over all the BMW V12 info out there- And this site seems to have the most informed.
I'm in the process of fitting a M70 in my 1971 Corvette.
Motor mounts utilizing stock Chevy mounts without having to modify the frame or firewall -is done.
I'm going to have to dry sump it-the Corvette being a rear sump chassis plus the steering is in the way not to mention ground clearance.
I've looked at several swaps out there-Chelle's (GTO/Datsun) looks similar like what I'll do for my oil pan mods/ dry sump system.
I'm using the stock BMW management (Thanks Simon for an excellent write up).
Before I pulled the motor out of my 1990 750IL donor- I cut wires at the x20/21 connectors -hooked up the e-throttle and emls& check light bulbs to make sure it ran on all 12. I'm not having to lengthen any wires -where as I'm utilizing the stock 750IL computer mount box w/ incorporated fan under the hood/front fender in the same location/distance as stock.
My question is-
What type/pressure/regulator do you think I'll need? I'm thinking- keep it simple -and run one pump. I'm not going to far from stock (as these engines really are tough to Hotrod). Or do I need two pumps- or a signal back to the computer for each pump? Or trick it ( the computers)w/ a couple of diodes to one pump?
And do I need a sensor for speed/abs input - where as I have read it'll go into limp mode if it doesn't see a signal for a while?
Here are some pic of the build-
http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f375/Richard454/Stingray%20V12/
Thanks in advance-
Richard |
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AdrianBurton |
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Post subject: RE: BMW V12 Swap Corvette
Posted: May 03, 2010 - 03:36 PM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 737
Location: Atlanta, GA / Orlando, FL
Status: Offline
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I saw your build on the BMW forum, you are selling yourself a bit short. You are more than a "little knowledgeable" In the V12 arena.
Welcome to the club. I wish I had a solid answer for you on the regulator, but I would think it to be easier to use both pumps (if you still have access to them)
I am going to use the Megasquirt for mine..... |
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dewey |
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Post subject: BMW V12 Swap Corvette
Posted: May 04, 2010 - 01:25 AM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 212
Location: mobile,alabama
Status: Offline
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Adrain is right you got what it takes. There is a guy that get on here from time
to time by the name of MKC , he's the brain when it comes to all that you are asking.Give him a PM.
Dewey |
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Richard454 |
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Post subject: RE: BMW V12 Swap Corvette
Posted: May 04, 2010 - 04:30 AM
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Junior Member
Joined: Mar 06, 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
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Thanks guys- I don't know where the quote was from but -"I'd rather be the one asking questions -than the guy that knows it all."
Megasquirt- That'll be nice. My initial plans are get the car up and running- work out the bugs and then go forward w/ a throttle body tunnel ram design intake that I can utilize my L88 cold air hood- the 4 barrel type that'll be a little more old school looking and confuse even more people...
I am documenting all the wire colors- I saw it done on the 91 and later- but haven't found anything pre-facelift w/ details.
I was going to use the factory pumps-in tank-using the BMW mounts. But if they failed ( that would NEVER happen!!!) I'd have to drop the tank to replace. I'm trying to keep it simple and a single external pump is a no brainer.
BTW- I just sold the factory pumps this weekend- more funds for my project!!!
I'll PM MKC.
Adrian- I see you're in Atlanta ( or part of) If you need a great machine shop - a good friend of mine just got back in the business ( bought his old shop back from the Bank) He's up a Road Atlanta (right behind BBS).
Richard |
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cribbj |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 04, 2010 - 11:20 AM
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Senior Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 111
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
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Richard, you mentioned an interest in dry sumping the V12?
I've asked Dailey Engineering to design & build a dry sump system for this engine, since they already have designs for the BMW 6/8/10 cylinder motors. If you don't know of Dailey Engineering, have a visit of their website, then talk to a few people. His dry sump systems are in a class all their own.
No mess of SS braided hoses all over the bottom of the engine; the scavenge stages of his pump are integrated with the oil pan, same as Ferrari and the other OEM's do a dry sump. The only hoses you'll have will be to & from the pressure pump.
Anyway, to get him motivated for this project, I had to guarantee I'd buy three pans, and I may still have one pan available if you want in. Cost of the pan alone would be around $1900-$2000 (SWAG)
One caveat, you'll probably have to lose or relocate the A/C compressor. His dry sump pump wants to live about in the same place as the A/C compressor. We're currently taking measurements to see how much deeper the pan would have to be for the top of his pump to clear the bottom of the A/C compressor, however my application doesn't require an A/C compressor anyway, so I'm not that bothered.
LMK if you're interested.
John |
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jdinner |
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Post subject: RE: BMW V12 Swap Corvette
Posted: May 04, 2010 - 11:22 AM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 2176
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Status: Offline
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I am using this pump on mine and it is working fine. It is tee'd to both fuel rails.
The stock fuel pressure regulators will work just fine too as long as they are not damaged.
At each regulator there is a fuel return line that needs to run back to the tank. These can be Tee'd also.
As for speed signal. This is still a question that I need to find the answer. So far with all the driving I have done I have not needed it. There is plenty of power and it never goes into limp mode. I made a speedo sensor for my VDO gauge and I have all the inputs and outputs ready to connect in case I need it.
I am using a 1991 engine. If you have the older computers I am pretty sure you can just ground the speed signal wire. I have it in my notes. |
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Richard454 |
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Post subject: RE: BMW V12 Swap Corvette
Posted: May 05, 2010 - 05:18 AM
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Junior Member
Joined: Mar 06, 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
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John-
$2K...and that doesn't include the pump and tank??? I saw the web site- nice- really nice stuff-HOWEVER way more than I wanna spend. Car has no A/C (nor power steering or PB) and there really isn't room for it thanks to the a-arm front suspension- But a 3 stage pump will fit there. Another off the wall idea- is use the lefthand stater location and run it off the flywheel- but I'd have to do some gear reduction and doubt the flywheel teeth would last that long.... I was looking at using the factory fitting on the side of the block as one scavenge P/U- just fit a P/U where the factory pump is/was- and then the second one off the pan. My steering linkage only gives me about 3" from bottom of the block- Exactly dead center of the factory oil pump. I have also looked at the LS7 pans out there- GM's factory design- and maybe run the oil pressure line in the pan- and connect where the stock oil pump connected. Anyway- I'm having my welder buddy come by and we'll figure something out. Another Idea was to use a 850 oil filter canister- It's smaller but doesn't have the outputs for the oil cooler-Which I'm probably not going to use- I think the drysump should cool the oil enough for a street car plus the 850 (except some euros) don't have a cooler.
I'll have all the hoses right where the A/C compressor was- and the sump- underneath the fender. Here's the drawing -
JDinner- Yes- I used your word doc (EXCELLENT!!!) - and expanded upon it- I listed the color code after the x20/21 connectors and am incorporating them into my swap. I can just disconnect and pull the engine. Like I said- before I pulled the motor- I cut all the wires that I wasn't going to need- ran the engine and made sure it was running on all 12- The speed sensor wasn't hooked up- but I didn't run it that long. I have read several posts from Shogun talking about the speed sensor and if it doesn't see a signal for a while(?) it'll go into limp mode.
OK...one pump it is- I'll just get a fuel tank sump kit-weld it on the factory tank and run one more ( total of two) gas lines...
Thanks again-
Richard |
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cribbj |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2010 - 05:55 AM
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Senior Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 111
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
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Richard, no problem. Most people don't want to spend this kind of money on a setup. I just don't like the mess of SS braided hoses associated with doing a dry sump.
BTW, check out Jay Esterer's V12 Ultima site for some additional pics of a dry sump setup. His was first & I think Chelle patterned hers from that one. BTW, Chelle has expressed an interest in this Dailey setup, so her existing dry sump setup may be available soon..... |
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Chelle |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 12:42 AM
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Member
Joined: Oct 17, 2006
Posts: 53
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
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Wow, I have GOT to spend more time skimming the forums..
John what's the progress on the dry sump your guy is making?
Richard, I'd still suggest an oil cooler, the nose of a Vette is similar to our GTO replica in that it's not going to move a ton of air. Better to have more cooling than not enough. After about 20 minutes on the highway our oil temp catches up to water temp and around town it's hot maybe 5 min faster. We bought a rediculous radiator and I still wish I went bigger.
An John's right, if his gets done
I'll sell my pump and lines and tank, etc.. I have two tanks, a two gallon and a 5 depending on your needs
Chelle |
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cribbj |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 05:29 AM
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Senior Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 111
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
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Apologies to Richard for the thread drift.
Chelle, Bill Dailey finished the design, then plotted it out full size just as a final check before turning it into CNC code, and found the mounting holes didn't line up with a pan that we sent him. Not Bill's fault as it appears the CAD drawing of the pan that I sent him was not correct. The M.E. that did the CAD is revising it and we should be good to go in a couple of weeks. |
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Chelle |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 03:18 PM
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Member
Joined: Oct 17, 2006
Posts: 53
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
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Thanks John!
Richard, also a good addition to protect your pump is prefilters in the scavenge lines and maybe the bottom of the tank. Dry sump pumps are way too expensive to not protect them from damage from a piece of grit.. |
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Richard454 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2010 - 03:59 AM
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Junior Member
Joined: Mar 06, 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
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No problem for the drift...
Chelle- I have a BIG rad already set up- It's for a 500+ cubic inch 600hp monster w/ twin spal fans. I'm thinking that work fine for 300ci/HP.
I have the oil cooler from the 750 I'm parting out-and was back and forth about using it.
I just got my "Speedway Motor's" catalog today- after seeing the fittings they have for Oil Pan Scavenging - http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Oil-Pan-Scavenge-Screens,4023.html I'm definitely going to get some.
I've got the pan finished- Have a good idea where I'm gonna put the tank ( under the driver side front fender) but haven't figured out where I'm going to put the pump. Space is REALLY tight up front w/ the crossmenber -steering linkage and a-arms- not to mention the motor is over an inch towards the passenger side- since GM years ago figured they needed more room for the driver side pedals.
Still kicking around the idea of a bellhousing - mounted Dry sump pump- the circle track guys are doing it...
Here's my pan- haven't put the scavenge line fittings on yet- but the test fit went great. I just bought another M70-so now I have one to mock up and one in the car to test fit!!!
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Richard454 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2010 - 03:59 AM
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Junior Member
Joined: Mar 06, 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
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| Triple post.... |
Last edited by Richard454 on Jul 28, 2010 - 02:38 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Richard454 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2010 - 04:00 AM
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Junior Member
Joined: Mar 06, 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
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| double post |
Last edited by Richard454 on Jul 28, 2010 - 02:37 PM; edited 1 time in total
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cribbj |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2010 - 05:40 AM
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Senior Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 111
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
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| Nice looking pan Richard. Kinda wishing I hadn't been so anal about getting rid of all the braided hose. If I'd gone yours and Chelle's route, I'd be driving, instead of wishing! |
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